Guru > One thing

Interview by Silvia Volpato
AL 50 October 2000

It may be Jazz, Hip Hop, Funk but it remains a sound that comes from the soul and the street.

“Pace to you and welcome to Jazzmatazz, a fusion experiment between Hip Hop and live jazz. Hip Hop, rap music, is a real thing, coming from the reality of everyday life, it is a cultural and musical expression based on reality, just as in the same way jazz is real and based on reality. I am Guru, I will be your guide on this journey. Guru means Gifted Unlimited Rhymes Universal...”

It was with these words that, in 1993, Guru opened the musical adventure called Jazzmatazz, making it evident, even to the eyes of those who had not yet realized it, how jazz and Hip Hop not only share a common matrix, but more importantly how their evolutionary destinies are unquestionably intertwined. Confirming this is an indisputable past, now already documented in books and vinyl. There was Grandmaster Flash mixing jazz records in heavy doses at all his parties in the 1970s, there was Steatsasonic paying homage to Lonnie Liston Smith with their ‘Talkin“ All That Jazz.’ there were Run DMC who with ”Peter Piper“ consigned Bob James” “Mardi Gras” to posterity as the most iconic break in history, and finally there were Herbie Hancock and Grandmixer DST who, fusing 88 keys and a DJ console, won a Grammy with the unforgettable “Rockit.”.

To put it bluntly, Guru did not experiment with anything that had not already been tested or that others after him have not been able to do with perhaps even greater insight-just think of the Brandford Marsalis/Buckshot Le Fonque who really knew how to give dimension and depth to jazz in Hip Hop and vice versa. Guru, more simply, has verbalized it. In seven years Jazzmatazz has landed on “Streetsoul,” its third installment, in which jazz has definitely become more of an inspiration than a mainstay of the work. Then again, the project had gone through enthusiasms but also many difficulties of understanding on the part of an audience, particularly the American one, which was always rather undecided about what judgment to make. On the one hand, the jazz world could regard contact with rap as filth on a fancy suit, and on the other Hip Hop relegated to a niche anything that might even remotely approach the definition of ‘experimental’ or ‘alternative.’ The fact remains that jazz and Hip Hop retain a natural bond, however you want to define it, and Guru always knew this. It was not enough for him to have next to him the producer that any mc would dream of and to have found with him the most convincing Hip Hop sound of the last decade; he was looking for “the alternative to James Brown's break,” that is, the one that in the early 1990s would save Hip Hop from monotony, from repetitiveness. Europe, in this journey of his, supported him in a way that the motherland could not. That is why so often we have also had the privilege of seeing him on Italian stages, whether for Jazzmatazz or with Gang Starr, and that is always why AL has had the opportunity to collect his thoughts several times on these pages. However, I confirm to you that it is always a thrill to hear what is, in all probability, the most beautiful voice rap music has ever had as it is always interesting to hear what Keith Elam, aka the man who possesses infinite and universal rhymes, has to say.

>I think it is now quite clear to your listeners what kind of influence jazz music has had on your life and musical career, however, I would like to ask you equally to elaborate on this topic and explain what is your view of the close relationship between jazz and Hip Hop.

“The first music I encountered in life was funk actually, I was listening to George Clinton, the Bar Kays, Cameo... Jazz was introduced to me by my uncle, George Johnson, actually he was my grandfather, but I always called him uncle. When I was growing up I spent a lot of time with him, he had a way with kids. At that time I was in rebellion with my parents, doing a lot of silly things, hanging out with the wrong people to spite them and getting into trouble. My uncle would occasionally come and fish me out and keep me with him. I remember him sitting me down in front of these huge speakers he had in the house and saying, “Now listen....” He'd put on stuff like Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Ella Fitzgerald, Sonny Rollins, Ornette Coleman, and he'd keep telling me, “This is real music, you hear?” I wasn't always crazy about it but I heard it so often that it stayed in my head, stuck. Later I enrolled in college in Atlanta and that's where I really learned about jazz, studying it. Bringing this back to Hip Hop, there's a point to be made that Gang Starr entered the scene at a time when there was a stalemate. Everybody was sampling James Brown breaks-it was late ’87 and everybody was wondering where Hip Hop was going to go at that point. People like Premier, Pete Rock and before that the Tribe, Diamond D, Showbiz, Lord Finesse...these were the best producers and still are and they were the ones who changed Hip Hop and made it take a sharp leap forward, they were the first ones to use jazz records in sampling and they did it with a style that was unrepeatable. These guys didn't stand there and say ‘we have to use jazz music in Hip Hop...’, they did it because they felt it was a natural thing and that's why it worked. Jazz and Hip Hop are two things that go together, it's about rhythm, it's about cadences, it's about atmospheres... It was just finding these elements in a Hip Hop base that made me want to become an mc.”

>Where did you first hear Premier?

“The first time I heard it I was on the subway, I had in my walkman this demo of an mc I didn't know and the bases were Primo's... I remember at some point I couldn't hear that mc anymore, just the beats and I was so into it that I started rapping over it, there in the subway...”

>Do you find that there are strong differences in the way the Jazzmatazz project has been received in Europe compared to the United States?

“In the first two definitely yes, also because in America they mis-promoted that product, they really didn't know which way to turn, I was so angry with the label. At the time that was my biggest frustration: in Europe I was famous and here I wasn't selling a copy, popularity and sales are not things that go hand in hand. Fortunately, I had people like Premier by my side who continued to support me, pushing me to work all the time. The problem with America was that since then they started labeling us as a jazz/Hip Hop group, alternative in short, and I assure you that if we hadn't gotten rid of that label I wouldn't be here talking to you now. Look what happened to US3, for example, they disappeared.”

>It is one of the biggest problems that even the Roots have had with the American market for years....

“Yes, while they were very popular in Europe. When you're in that condition it's hard to figure out the right path, Primo and I changed labels a couple of times and now we're pretty comfortable at Virgin, but the problems all stem from there; you need people who understand what you're doing and know how to enhance it. Giving a record to a label is like entrusting your child to someone; what do you do if they mistreat it? You go crazy... But, to go back to the jazz thing, what I wanted to do with all the Jazzmatazz was kind of put a twist on the relationship between jazz and Hip Hop, bringing on a Hip Hop record all the great protagonists of the jazz epic that it was possible to have and see what kind of chemistry would be created. Of all those involved in the project, Donald Byrd was the one who impressed me the most with his attitude. He understood on the fly how things were supposed to go in the first Jazzmatazz and sort of took over the reins of the project. He was the one who put me in touch with many others, choosing the people who would best fit the kind of work--Herbie Hancock for example. Byrd has been incredible.’

>How has the Jazzmatazz discourse evolved from ‘93 to the present? “The first two were much more experimental. I was coming from the Gang Starr sound which is much more minimal, minimal but fat, and it was very different to find myself working with instruments and with such different vocalists. My knowledge of music increased because of that. I learned how to be an executive producer, how to set up a staff.”

>How does the work for Jazzmatazz albums begin, with what criteria?

“I always start with a ‘wishlist.’ I compile this list of people I would like to work with and I choose them based on the esteem I have for their work and based on the esteem they have shown for me. There has to be a mutuality because it has to be spontaneous what then comes out. We have to have fun making music. After I compile this list I choose a theme to give the album. In this case I even wanted to do away with the title “Jazzmatazz 3” because I find it to be a dated concept now. The theme is precisely ‘Streetsoul’ and that is what the LP is called.”

>Why “Streetsoul?” “Because that's what black music is and never before has black music become one. It may be jazz, Hip Hop, funk but it remains a sound that comes from the soul and from the street.”

>Has there ever been an artist you really wanted to work with but couldn't get? I don't know, maybe someone who appeared on all three lists? “I confess to you that every list I make is way too long to really get everyone on it... The label people regularly yell at me: ‘hey Keith, what is this??? This is not a list, it's a monster!!!’. Very often it happens then that I have to give up someone because they are busy with their work, this is the main reason for some absences. But if I have to tell you one person, one out of all, that is Sade.”  

>Sade! I heard that he is finally working on a new album.... “In fact, that's why I couldn't have her in Streetsoul. She thinks that I had always admired her so much, and one day I got a postcard from her. It was “94/”95 I think, she wrote to me that she was a big Gang Starr fan and that she would very much like to participate in any future Jazzmatazz. I couldn't believe it, I looked her up right away of course, but then mutual commitments didn't match... I would have liked D'Angelo too, but he was on tour. While Premier was in the studio with him recording ‘Devil's Pie’ I was quivering to do something. We promised each other to do it anyway, maybe for the next Gang Starr album. Among the others I would like are Dallas Austin and Dr. Dre. Dre is outstanding, outstanding...“

>Have you seen the last The Source Awards? Except for the fight, I mean, he won just about everything.... 

“Yes I saw, I had to be there too but I'm glad I didn't go with what happened... I'll tell you something, last year the situation was very similar, there was crazy tension in the air even though nothing happened. This year I think some people went there with the sole intention of raising hell, and this thing makes me crazy angry. It is stupid because we are taking away from ourselves the best opportunities that life has given us. It is as ridiculous as when we kill our own leaders. People are afraid because all it takes is for one to say something silly and another to be offended that is enough to raise hell. That's why black youth carry stress on them, you can never afford not to feel the tension, if you do you could be screwed, even if you go to a theater to celebrate and collect an award...”

>What do you think, for example, about what was done about Diallo's murder? Do you think it serves, do you think it will change? “What has been done? A couple of records? Yes, yes, it's all very good but we keep losing and we lose doubly every time because we not only get murdered by others but we kill each other. All these people, Tupac, Biggie, Freaky Tah, Big L -- I don't know, I remember when Biggie and Tupac were friends because I was with them. All this is crazy and dangerous, I feel in danger but I try not to think about it. I do what I have to do, I get on with my work.”

>Ok, let's talk about more relaxing things.... “No, don't worry about it, actually talking about it I feel deeply fortunate because I realize that I have music and that this gives me a chance to stay out of trouble and at the same time the credibility to be heard by kids. Making rhymes that contain a message does not necessarily mean saying things with social or human depth. Even a piece like the one I did with Nice&Smooth, “DWICK,” full of bullshit serves because it shows kids what you can do with words. Use words guys, they are beautiful toys and powerful weapons...”

>Back to the awards talk for a moment--can I ask you who you think is the best mc of the last year? “Tupac Shakur.”

>...Gee, you didn't even think about it for a second.... “Yes, you see, he is no longer with us but people are still listening to him as if he came out today and still he is one of the best ever. We all still have a lot to learn from what he said and how he said it.”

>Listening to the song “Guidance” I was surprised since you dedicate it to a baby that is about to be born, to your son. It must have already been a while since you wrote it. Has he already been born? “Oh yes, my son was born only three weeks ago...” 

>Well, congratulations... “Thank you, really. It's a boy, his name is Casim, Keith Casim. This is the most ... strongest thing that ever happened in my life, like an alarm clock that went off in my brain. When I saw my son I saw a little me, I was shocked. But even waiting for the birth of a child is a profound experience, you find yourself praying, asking a lot of things for him. I wrote the first stanza of “Guidance” imagining I was talking to my son who is already a teenager, you know, at the time when he is looking for a direction to go. In the second stanza I turn to my brothers who are also fathers, so that they can understand the responsibility, but also the good fortune that they have. Unfortunately growing up I've seen a lot of children without a father beside them and I wish that would change for my people, but at the same time I've seen criminals change their lives after having a child... “Guidance” has a double meaning, just like children, we are their guidance and vice versa they are ours.”

>Before I say goodbye, I would like to ask you one last question; what do you think will be the ‘next’ sound of Hip Hop, the next innovative push, if any?

“First of all I think Hip Hop is diversifying a lot regionally. At least in America it happens that each state has its own local rapper or producer, its own well-defined reality. I see that happening abroad as well, whereas before everyone was imitating the American style a lot, now even in Japan and especially in Europe the traits of a different Hip Hop, more suited to your culture, are emerging and this is the right way. What I can tell you is that I hope Hip Hop will continue to contain all the world's musics, as it always has, but at the same time I think the next innovative push will be more cultural than sonic. The culture of every country that has accepted Hip Hop will change its sound.”